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Artful Dodger

I have posted a comparison between the PIOMAS prediction for SIE and AMSR-E observations from Uni-Bremen on Aug 12, 2011 over on the PIOMAS July page:


Ennis George

"On a regional level, the long-term downward trend is expected to continue in all regions except the Greenland Sea."

Would this not be expected since the major advection route for Arctic Sea ice is through the FRam Strait into the Greenland Sea?


After watching the PIOMAS seasonal outlook animation again, it seems that from mid-August to the end of September, the extent really tanks on the Russian side. A prediction of things to come?


Here is the animation:

Seke Rob

That's a superb animation and with the daily data, albeit totals only, allows for some interesting calculations to ponder on for those that have been very quick to dismiss this project over Cryosat-2 as the new gospel from the first pass.


Craig Dillon

As I understand it, PIOMASS is a model that is used by the Navy to project where their subs can surface in the Arctic without encountering damaging ice. The need to be very cautious about damaging a sub, or the expense of sending it someplace where it cannot surface, leads me to believe that PIOMASS probably overstates its ice projections. Therefore, I do not recognize it as a valid climate model.
Thank you

Kevin O'Neill

Craig - I believe you might be confusing PIOMAS with PIPS. PIPS is the US Navy product and PIOMAS is from the Polar Science Center -- a department within the Applied Physics Laboratory at the University of Washington.

Ennis George

@Craig Dillon

Craig, how models are used is quite different from what the model actually measures and reports on. For example a model might say that the ice is 1 meter thick +/- 20 cm. The user would the decide to build in a margin of error based on an Expected Value risk assessment. For example a sub costing $5 billion dollars and carrying 100 men might warrant building in a safety margin of 100 cm while an ice breaker costing $5 billion might not need any safety margin.

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